#78 Adult Friendships: Building Real Connection with Sarah & Justine

Sarah: I just got back from Vegas a couple weeks ago, and I hate Vegas, by the way. I feel like when you’re younger, which I feel like I’m not, Vegas is so fun and you’re like, “Ooh, sexy Vegas.” I’m like, “Oh, Vegas, so much work and my feet hurt, and I don’t have to wear heels, but I don’t want to, so I’m going to wear flats and getting dressed up.” I used to really love that stuff and I was like, “Okay.”
I was invited by somebody that I know from high school. Basically this girl is like– I think she’s five years older than me. I was like in eighth grade when she was a senior in high school. I knew of her. She was like a leader of a group that I was a part of with the high schoolers. We’ve sort of kept in touch. We’ve been Instagram friends. I grew up in Ecuador and went to a high school that was private English-speaking American curriculum, like bilingual but most classes were in English.
We had kids from all over the world. This girl, she is Ecuadorian, but she moved to the States after she graduated high school, married a white guy and lives in Idaho. Because of the way that we grew up, everybody was super duper close. It seems like it’s weird, but it’s also not. My graduating class was 56 people, and everybody was really close. None of us had family that were in the country unless they were Ecuadorian. We all just became very close.
It’s not totally weird that we stayed in touch, but she’s like– first of all, she’s an Enneagram seven, like me, which means we’re the life of the party. Not really, but it can mean that. We have massive amounts of FOMO typically. Again, that’s typical that. I would say she is like the most stereotypical seven I’ve ever met in my life. Everyone’s like, “Oh, you have a strong wing eight.” I’m like, yes I do, because I can be very like cut and dry about certain things. When I’m in my core of who I am, sevens are– she’s very fun. She’s very outgoing. She’s very charismatic.
She’s friends with everyone and curious about everything, just has a lot of friends. It’s like social butterfly style. Anyway, none of this is weird except for when she called me and was like, “I am going to Vegas for my 40th birthday, and I am going with two girls from high school,” whom I know of. Again, it’s close-knit community. I follow one of them on Instagram. One of them’s actually an aerial artist for Cirque de Soleil. Cool job.
Of course, I’ve paid attention to what she did. The other one is the CMO for a very large celebrity. It’s probably public somewhere, but I don’t want to out her, but the biggest beauty brand of the last while and one of the most successful, very cool celebrities ever. Anyway, she’s very interesting, and she’s in marketing and of course business, whatever. I was like, okay, like cool, interesting people, whatever. They’re like best friends. They go way back to childhood.
They have pictures together from elementary school. The three of them, plus her best friend from I think college were all going to Vegas. She called me to invite me to go to Vegas with them. I was like, oh, okay. Like, wow. I remember thinking like, what in the world? Why are you inviting me on this trip? So weird. I’m the outsider, but like also Enneagram seven, I’m down for a good time and a good story. Anyway, it actually worked with my calendar, and I just was like, “It’s so nice that you would invite me.”
All of that being said, I’m going to give you a little preview to where we’re going with this episode. You probably saw it in the title. With this episode, what we want to talk about, and Justine is here.
Justine: Hello.
Sarah: We want to talk about adult friendships because, even in this moment, as I was invited, I think, looking back, I was faced with this decision of, one, I can go or, two, I can’t go. It’s one or the other. If I go, I’m the outsider. They’re all close. They were the older cool kids in school, and also very confusing why you want me there, but cute, I guess. The other piece is it’s Vegas. I was like, okay, but what kind of crowd is this? Are they doing lines of coke in the bathroom? Because that’s not my vibe.
We can’t do that, but we’re going to go to cute dinners, have some cocktails. Maybe go to a show. Great. I can handle that, which they are the latter. Thank God. I just was like, okay, weird. It could be very uncomfortable. Again, I am 36 years old and still I was thinking about my own insecurities of like, am I going to fit in? Is it going to be awkward? I’m traveling to see these people. It costs money or I say no.
I thought to myself, easily, I could have been like, well, what’s the point? I’m going to be so uncomfortable. I’m a little uncomfortable, therefore I’m just going to like push away from the experience. Mind you, if you know me at all, I am not averse to being uncomfortable. I will say that I think I have a unique skill for managing the discomfort and also just pushing through social circumstances, where very quickly, I just become very comfortable. I will say that I think has come with age and with time and with my own security in myself.
I knew I’d be fine. Throw me in a social circumstance. I can make friends with people. Of course, looking at it, especially because they were friends, it felt uncomfortable, but otherwise I was like, yes, I’ll be fine. Of course, I’m down for a good time. It worked with my schedule. I was like, you know what? What do I have to lose? Even going into that and thinking about adult friendships, I did, I have been thinking about adult friendships. Over the years, I have lost friends. We have just grown apart from certain people.
There’s certain people that have come back into my life. Then I think, thinking about friendships, they just ebb and flow. For me, especially being an entrepreneur and being someone who’s annoyingly busy and constantly working, I just have not had the same capacity to even be the friend that I want to be. That, I had been thinking about. All of that being said, when I was invited to this, I thought to myself, you know what? I do. I want to surround myself with good people. I want to surround myself with people who are motivated, who are building beautiful lives, who are giving back in the world, and who are committed to friendship.
I will say that– this girl’s name is Lizzie. Lizzie is incredible at staying in touch with people. I will say that, even from afar, Lizzie to me is– and I’m sure she has her downside, but in general, I very much admire her stamina for relationships and her consistency. She reaches out, and she’ll send me like random restaurant recommendations she sees in LA just because I’m here. I want to be that person, I’m so not.
There are things about her that I really look up to. I was like, that’s the type of people that I want to surround myself with. I’m in a weird season now where I don’t have as many friends as I’ve had in the past. I’ve grown apart from some of the people that I have been close to in the past. That hasn’t necessarily been intentional. Some of that has been intentional, but in general, it’s just life happens.
I will never forget, actually I’ve heard it over and over again in various formats, that it was Krista Dancy, actually– if you’ve taken our trauma classes, she’s amazing. I was just talking about how being an entrepreneur is pretty lonely and no one gets it. You just don’t. I say I work a lot and that’s just sounds so annoying to hear. It sounds annoying to say, and yet it is for sure the most challenging thing I have ever done. It’s just constant new problems, next, left and right in small business and employees and random rules and random binds and legal this and like stuff you just don’t– I didn’t get into it to do it.
She said that also– I’m also a very growth mindset person. You’ve heard our episodes on that, always wanting to level up, be better, learn, grow, take the lesson, take responsibility for my side and be better. She said that being that type of person is a very, very lonely place. I was like, huh, that’s interesting. I wouldn’t ever really call myself lonely, but I was like, “Tell me more.” She was like, “because when you level up, you level out of your relationships constantly.”
When you’re at a pace that maybe is a little quicker and in general, like my pace, just in life, just in general, I move very quickly, but that every time you level up, the people that were with you in that other level, and it’s not a lower level, it’s another, a different level, they have to decide, are they going to level up too, or are they going to be uncomfortable with how you’ve leveled up because it brings to light where they were or where they are? It’s sort of like that push pull. There’s a separation. Or do they just celebrate you and recognize that where they’re at is where they’re at, and where you’re at is where you’re at? She’s like, “You can’t be–” I heard recently from Oprah in preparation of this that like–
Justine: You love Oprah?
Sarah: I love Oprah. I do. She said like why– they were asking her why does her and Gayle’s relationship work. She said, because there’s not one ounce of jealousy. We just genuinely celebrate each other. As I was thinking about this Vegas trip and deciding to go, I consciously made the decision that, you know what, I want to pursue some new relationships. I want to find some adult friends that are life affirming and that celebrate me. That has been my theme over the last year and through the growth of my own self that people come to light. I’m sure everybody listening has been there. That like your friends, they celebrate you or they subtly send their jabs.
First of all, I don’t want to be the friend that subtly sends the jabs. I want to be the friend that celebrates those around me. I want to surround myself only with people who are going to celebrate who I am and that jealousy doesn’t get in the way or even their own insecurities, even being able to talk about their own insecurities. I feel insecure about that. Gosh, I really look up to you versus to make you feel better that they would say something like, “Gosh, why can’t you blah, blah, blah,” and put you down.
This was the whole instigation of this episode. I go to Vegas, okay. I have the time of my life. It was so much fun. It was late nights with champagne in the rooms, and she bought us matching pajamas. We’re all just like talking about everything from being a parent to sex to jobs to what like our favorite restaurants are or travel adventure. It was just girls’ time. I realized it’s been so long since I’ve had a girls’ night like that and been around women, this sounds terrible, but that inspire me the way that they did.
It’s not because I’m not around inspiring women, it’s because I’m not around anyone. Literally my sister inspires me because I work with her 24/7, and the people I work with inspire me. As far as like outside of that, I really want in this season of life and in 2025 to be better at adult friendships. There’s that. I have this amazing time, really life affirming, gave me energy to come back and live. I just was like, wow, what a good break. It felt like an actual break from work versus I have a day off, but I’m still thinking about work. I still like [crosstalk]
Justine: Wasn’t it only 24 hours that you went?
Sarah: It was gone for 36.
Justine: Oh, okay. That’s a lot for Sarah.
Sarah: Two nights. I know. I only worked for a couple of hours of that. I left dinner at one point because we had the launch of the mentorship webpage. I was in the room in Vegas launching mentorship webpage with– that’s what you do. It was fine. They all understood. Guess what? I got back to the table, and I was like, “It’s live.” They were like, “Yes!” We all cheered. They were like, “Amazing.” There was no pushback whatsoever. I’m getting ahead of myself, but it was amazing.
I have this amazing time, and what I witnessed during this time in Vegas had me on pause. It still has me on pause for various reasons. One is being able to observe these women celebrate and love Lizzie for her birthday. Lizzie is one of a kind. She is outgoing. She’s charismatic. She knows what she wants. She asks for what she wants. If she wants the photo, we will take 700 photos to get the right photo for her.
There were so many moments where I would look at the circumstance, and I just was like taken aback because I looked around the room and there was not ever one eye roll, one side glance, like, “Oh my God, this girl.” In other circumstances on our units, how much are we doing that? Where it’s just like, why do we have to tear each other down so much? I saw them be just down. It was, you want to do this? Great. I have this thought. We collaborated.
People would share from their heart, and these girls would jump in and just be like, I realize that’s hard, but look at what an incredible mom you are. Look at how you’ve made that sacrifice for your family. Look at you stepping away now. We’re so proud of you for being here. It was just words of affirmation left and right, where it’s to the point where it’s uncomfortable or just like, okay, we’re all gassing enough.
They did it for me, and they don’t even know me. They had the longevity of relationship. At the dinner table, one of them was like, I’d love for all of us to share one of our favorite memories of Lizzie. Let’s talk and let’s remind her of what we love about her. Normally, I’m the one that’s instigating those questions. To be honest, that’s very much like me, but so meaningful, so intentional.
They just cared for each other. There was no competition. There was no jealousy, and it was pure celebration of each other. They were curious about me, and they asked amazing questions and I was able to share. Then they’d ask questions where I’m like, oh, that actually caused me to think a little deeper and process a little bit. How do you feel about that? We talked about being bullied as children. Me and a girl one night, we talked about our weight issues.
They talked about marital struggles and having kids. We did full birth debriefs at times. It was this pure representation of adult, I’ll say, female friendship. I don’t think this is necessarily gendered, but I think there is a little bit of gendered stuff here. All of that being said, I texted Justine and I was like, “Look–” She’s like, “How was Vegas?” I was like, “It was–” What did I say?
Justine: I could find it, but you loved it. You were so excited about it. I typically thought you’d be like, “It was good.” I was like, wow.
Sarah: It was deep. It felt really like thought provoking.
Justine: I have so much to say. I wanted just the listeners to know. You guys are a different breed of people in the sense of that third culture kid, right? That’s what it’s called-
Sarah: Yes.
Justine: -which is fascinating to me. I realized this quickly with Sarah, about how in people in her life that she’s introduced me to from Ecuador of how fast and deep they’ll go so quickly. I love it. Part of me feels like I have a little bit of that because I went to five different elementary schools. I had to meet people quick and make friendships quick. I think that’s how we’ve bonded too because it was quick and fast. There’s something magical to that. Explain a little bit what a third culture kid is and then how can we become more like that without doing it? I don’t know how– how can you?
Sarah: Yes, you’re an adult now, so you’ll never be a third culture kid, technically. You can make your kids third culture kids. If you don’t know anything about this, there’s actually like– it’s like a studied people group and culture. Basically the idea of a third culture kid or now what we would call an adult third culture kid is anyone who grew up outside of their passport country during their developmental years.
Don’t quote me wrong, but my understanding is that, especially during your teenage years, because those are, one, years you remember, but also you’re so socialized by your peers in that time, but it can be younger as well. Growing up outside of your passport country, that makes you a third culture kid. What happens is you have your passport country, and then you have the country that you grew up in. Because neither one is home, one of the common denominators amongst TCKs, we call them or adult TCKs, is that, when you ask them where is home, they’re like, “Uh.”
I still struggle with that question, actually. I’m like, well, I’m from Ecuador. I grew up in Minnesota and Ecuador, but I live in LA so I’m kind of from LA. Now I more feel like I’m from LA. I would say like, “I’m from LA,” but it’s uncomfortable because neither culture fits. What happens is, in between, it creates this middle culture that’s actually– and if you could see me, my hands are on the ground. Your one hand is the passport country. The other one’s the one you grew up in. Then above that is this middle like bubble. No matter what country lands in either one of those hands, you end up with very similar characteristics.
Justine: I just Googled the characteristics.
Sarah: Yes. Tell me, tell me, tell me. What does ChatGPT say?
Justine: Right. Adventurous, curious, adaptable, perceptive, tolerant. Those are the good ones. There’s some negative ones of like misunderstood, confused, unrooted, et cetera, which makes sense. Right?
Sarah: Yes.
Justine: I just think, in general, I don’t think I will raise third culture kids, but I want all of those qualities in my children. I’ve hung out with people like you and you, and it’s so refreshing and even hearing about– I want to go to dinner with Lizzie and all her friends. How do we become more like that as adults that didn’t live in different countries?
Sarah: You have to put yourself in uncomfortable circumstances.
Justine: Yes.
Sarah: You have to go to the Vegas trip. You have to travel alone. You have to do things on your own. You have to not shy away from hard. You have to go to the country. This is an obvious one, but go to a country and don’t speak the language and just figure it out. The concept of just figure it out, I really think is one of the keys. I hear about adventures or whatever. A lot of that is because you grew up in multiple places and because of exposure as well.
Justine: You’ve been to the Galapagos Islands how many times?
Sarah: Just once.
Justine: Oh, I feel like you went to a place– but still just once, it’s kind of a big deal.
Sarah: For my senior, for my senior AP biology trip.
Justine: Yes. It’s pretty good. I was thinking about like, well, okay, so someone’s listening to this. How do I go find the uncomfortable situations? I don’t even know how to start that. I had a list already and you can add to this, but I was even thinking like walking or running groups. I see people join those, and I’m like, I would never.
Sarah: A meet up.
Justine: A meetup, mom groups. An easy one, if you’re going to move somewhere is church, if you don’t have church trauma, like myself. I thought too the move, our move conference in Mexico is a huge one. We had girls–
Sarah: Oh, I love this, such a good point.
Justine: They went alone. We love this story. They went alone. We found them roommates. They met up as people that came alone. I would imagine still, but a year later, we had found out that they were still meeting monthly on Zoom to all hang out. There was like seven of them, which it was like the fricking best.
Sarah: [crosstalk] I could literally cry. That’s literally a dream come true.
Justine: Things like that. I honestly think like travel nursing. If you really want to get out there and go to a different state, try a travel nurse gig.
Sarah: Yes. I think just being aware of circumstances and following your heart almost of like, I really want to go to this concert. I don’t have anyone to go with. I’m going to go, and I’m going to make a friend. You don’t have to be like lifelong friends, but to be put in uncomfortable circumstances, I also tell the story. I will say that, particularly socially, I think I am very comfortable very quickly. There’s always a tinge of like, ooh, okay, let’s see how this goes, and got to figure out my environment.
If I go in with the intent to meet everyone in the room, I absolutely will. I am not uncomfortable by that whatsoever, but also have to be in the right mindset. I blame that on an ex boyfriend of mine that was in the music industry. He would throw me at these Hollywood parties, and he’d just leave me. I have a lot of very not nice things to say about him. He was a cheater. It reminds you a great time for my twenties, talk about some good stories.
I’m backstage, and all of a sudden like Toni Braxton and her sisters are all there with me standing awkwardly in the corner. I can either stand there awkwardly as the outsider or be comfortable and make conversation in a natural way. The dude was nowhere to be found and just left me for the wolves, and they were wolfy. I was comfortable, and I chose– it’s like that internal– you know the sense where you’re like, oh, and there’s this discomfort? I feel it in my chest or my abdomen.
You’re like, oh my gosh. Then you’re faced with the decision to either do the hard thing or to hide, don’t hide. Pay attention to your body. I can feel it in my body thinking about the Toni Braxton show. Oh my God. There’s, I could name drop a lot of things that happen, but just very, very uncomfortable.
Justine: Literally googling who Toni Braxton is.
Sarah: [sings] Unbreak my heart. [laughs]
Justine: Okay. I got it.
Sarah: I’m very good at that. Impression. Thank you. I’ve heard that song live way too many times.
Justine: That’s funny. That’s so good. Something though, too, when I am in a situation socially and someone is being really social and if someone was there alone– when you said go to a concert and make a friend, think about being on the other side of that of like, why is this person trying to be friends with me? Trying to be more open to people being social like that. Because I think it’s a little– especially now and maybe it’s post COVID or-
Sarah: It is.
Justine: -what, but it’s like, why are you talking to me? Socially it can be uncomfortable. If you’re trying to make more adult friends and open yourself up to relationship, you have to then be open to people wanting that.
Sarah: Yes. Yes. It does take a certain energy. It’s like when you’re single, that when you’re single, it’s like there’s single energy and then there’s not single energy. When I’m not single, I never get hit on to the point where I’m like, am I a fuggly? What happened? The moment I’m single, I’m out and about, I’m like, whoa, attention. I really do think there’s an energetic component, and it’s like you got to bring your head out of the dirt in the ground of like open your eyes and look around for opportunity and, one, the beauty in the world and therefore the beauty in those around you.
Not everyone is worth a friendship. Especially in this season, I feel extremely discerning of those that I surround myself with, but you don’t know until you try and then set the boundary of how much access do they get. I remember there’s this book, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. It is a faith-based book, but the concept and the spark notes version of it is– that just dated me– that the ChatGPT version of the book is that, when you’re making a boundary with someone, there’s access and responsibility.
When you’re giving someone access to you, you can give them levels of access. You give them like your whole soul, or you give them like a very surface level and then everything in between. They actually have to earn access through carrying responsibility for the pieces that you incrementally give them. TCKs are notoriously bad at this. This is what has screwed me over so many times in life because I’m like, oh, full access. The responsibility–
First of all, they haven’t proven that they can be responsible. They very quickly proved that they are irresponsible with who I am with believing the best in me. For me, that has become one of my core requirements in friendship, of don’t write my story. Don’t decide who I am and give me a voice. Let me be seen for who I am. Don’t make anything that isn’t. If it is, then love me through my struggles. It doesn’t have to be that hard.
Regardless, responsibility and access in setting a boundary with those that you’re being open to, but you have to be open and be aware if you’re trying to make friends. If you’re not, then you’re not. In general, I do think that the older we get, the more our circle gets smaller. I have become more selective. I felt like that has been really necessary for also the growth personally and professionally that I’ve had that I’m more vulnerable.
I’m also less vulnerable anyways, but with great power comes great responsibility. The more I grow and level up and have influence in the world, there’s a lot of people that just want that. They don’t want me at my core of on the hard days when I’m barely hanging on.
Justine: Speaking of vulnerable, I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, I researched how to be a good friend because it is true. Especially it’s harder as an adult. One of the things was be vulnerable, but I really liked that levels and responsibility. I feel like that’s a balance of how vulnerable are you. As a mom and as a mom of young people in my life, young people, I’m going to call them young people, I will say that some of my most special friendships right now are the moms that can be vulnerable with each other of how fricking hard it is.
You don’t have to be vulnerable where you’re sharing the deepest parts of your soul, but you can be vulnerable in your current experiences maybe and see how they take responsibility of that before you share even more things.
Sarah: I also think that in protection, I think, because, once again, I suck at this. I am notorious for give you all of it and believe that you’re a good person and then realize like, oh, shoot. Now I’ve really screwed myself. I think one of the lessons that I find myself saying to other people recently and to myself is, when they show you who they are, believe them. I think that is also something that for me, even romantic relationships, I am currently single. If you were listening a few months ago, I was not. It’s like, you can believe the best in people. I don’t ever want to lose that about myself, but that has caused some hurt and some harm. It’s like this idea of look at people’s actions. What are they saying? How does it make you feel?
When you’re around them, is there side comments and are you hearing about them talking about you to other people and deciding who you are and creating a narrative for those around you that doesn’t allow you to have your own voice? When that happens, look at their actions and believe them. Then the only thing I’m responsible for is my response and how much access I give. Do I retreat? Do I pull back? It’s like the easy tangible example of this is like you give someone a password to your e-mail and they keep it to themselves or they share it and they share it, and so you change your password.
It’s like really painfully sometimes believing people because for many of us, we want the best and we see the potential and it’s like, what? You’re so much better than this. Like, gosh, and managing our own disappointment while also not taking on that responsibility of somebody else’s choice and saying, if they wouldn’t have done it that way, I wouldn’t have had to fire them, or I wouldn’t have had to cut them off from relationship or I wouldn’t have had to create that boundary or I would have shared about this hard thing going on in my life.
Because of their choices, not mine, I am responding to them showing who they are.
Justine: Then while actively just seeking other relationships too, because then it could be like, then you just retreat back from everyone.
Sarah: Right. That’s the thing. It’s like, but it doesn’t mean that there’s no one out there that can support you or match your energy or match your enthusiasm or that has the same perspective. Unless we’re being intentional and talking about this stuff and like, for me and my crazy life to go like, hold on, I want to be a better friend amidst everything else. It’s easy to go a year or years now. I look back and I’m like, I don’t have as many friends as I used to. For me, I’ve also had to look at that and go, is it numbers or is it quality?
Because I have some really amazing quality girlfriends and I’m choosing to make time for those in my crazy schedule and I don’t have that much more capacity. At some point I might have more capacity and I might seek out other opportunities and put myself in circumstances where I might meet people who are like-minded, but otherwise, it’s like, you have to be discerning and believe people and let them like be who they are and then accept them for who they are. That doesn’t mean judge them, but then also decide how much access they have to your life.
Justine: It just reminded me of The Let Them Theory from Mel Robbins, which is just so good. If you haven’t looked that up.
Sarah: Yes. My sister’s on a kick right now about all of that.
Justine: [crosstalk]?
Sarah: Yes. We’re going to the book– We’re going [crosstalk]
Justine: Yes. It’s on the 9th.
Sarah: Yes. I’ll link a podcast down below related to some of this because I think, yes, I agree her whole new book and all of that. We’ll link all of it down below. It’s truly life-changing.
Justine: I haven’t read the book. I just listened to the podcast and it was really great.
Sarah: Which podcast?
Justine: Her episode of Let Them. She came out with it a few years ago, I feel like, and my friend had shared with me a few years ago and it really helped me in my marriage. It was really nice.
Sarah: Lewis Howes just did one where he interviewed her specific to the book and then she tells it that it’s the school of greatness. Of course, that’s like my podcast, [crosstalk] but I will link both down below and the book.
Justine: Another one that on the list was, I don’t know, because there’s two that I really want to share. Be open-minded. This reminds me of don’t write their story. If this is something that’s naturally hard for you, I read something recently of if you read fiction books, you’re more empathetic. I thought about that.
I’ve read my whole life and I love fiction and I’m a pretty empathetic person. I’m always like trying to think of their side and I’m like, I wonder if it’s because I like read my whole life. It’s because you’re put into these stories of people and you’re immersed in their story and you feel bad for characters. You’re like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe this.” You have this empathy that builds through the story of like, where there’s no risk. It’s not real life. You can feel bad for them and it doesn’t really matter, but you just slowly build empathy.
I heard that you should have your kids read books, read fiction books if you want them to have more empathy. Just a little tip, if you have a hard time empathizing, or if you’re just very– the first word is rigid and I don’t want anyone to feel like I’m calling them rigid. If you’re more strict of like black and white like, “No, you did this wrong. I’m going to– You’re judging people for things that maybe you don’t understand. A little tip, you can read fiction books.
Sarah: I love that. I aspire to be a fiction reader someday.
Justine: Slash listen to them. They’re very fun these days. They’re actually turning them into graphic audios now where multiple people are reading and there’s music and in the background and they’re walking, you can hear the heels on the road. It’s really fun.
Sarah: Did you ever listen to Adventures in Odyssey?
Justine: No, but it sounds fun.
Sarah: What? Oh my gosh. Wait, those of you that listened to Adventures in Odyssey growing up, please hit me up in DMs on my personal, because we do talk about this. It was life-changing. It was Christian-based. It was from church stuff growing up, but they told these stories that were full productions. It was like a movie, but they did it in a way that it was specific to audio. It was so good. I would listen to Adventures in Odyssey constantly. Maybe that’s why I like audiobooks so much and less reading.
Justine: Then that’s a little tip there. Then, one of the ones I loved was Don’t Hold Back Praise and it’s just a good one, right? It’s the whole celebrate them. Why not just throw out those affirmations? It’s probably hard for people to do because that is like a love language gift. People are naturally better at affirming people. If you can just start practicing it like little by little and even if you’re at work–
Sarah: Well, and it’s not fake. It’s like when you think of some– we think of nice things like, “Wow, they look so cute.” Or like, “I love your hair.” Say it, like put it out of your mouth and it will become more natural. I feel like I’ll be like in the middle of a conversation with someone. I’ll be like, “I can’t even handle talking to you because your eyes are so pretty.” To some random stranger. You keep doing it and it keeps happening. It’s easy to do once you start it.
Justine: I’ll just share the first one, which I think is probably the hardest one for all of us is the love yourself. You have to love yourself before you can love others. That’s hard. Our negative self-talk I feel like as a generation, especially the millennial generation is in the drain a lot of the time. It just starts with the reframing what you say to yourself. I think Sarah is really good at this and you’ve helped me with this. I have friends that have helped me with this of like, even if you just saying like, “Oh man, I suck.” You shouldn’t say that because that goes in your brain.
Sarah: Yes, you save it.
Justine: Stop using that kind of vocabulary, even thinking it. When you catch yourself and my favorite thing is first thought is who you are. Second thought is who you’re becoming. Maybe you say tomorrow you’ll listen to this or when you listen to this the next day you say, “I suck.” Be like, “Wait, I’m not supposed to say that. What could I say instead?” Start changing your internal monologue.
Sarah: Something interesting that’s happened. My sister has moved to California. She works for Bundle Birth. She is our director of strategy. She’s amazing. She has allowed me to live basically and get projects done and everyone needs a Hannah in their life. Her and her two young children, two and four, and her husband have moved in with me and they have not left. It is currently January. I’ve been living in close quarters with this family for the last months and I have lived by myself for 10 years prior to this. I’ve been alone and we’re working with each other and we’re now friends.
As adults, she’s one of my best friends, if not my best friend. We are having so much fun together and just doing life. Something that I have taken from her, it started for a while, but we’d be doing work and she’d just be like, “You are amazing.” I was like, “Oh, okay. That’s uncomfortable.” Like, “Okay, no, it’s not all like, that’s fun. You’re so cute. Oh, God.” I think, one, pause that if someone were to say to you, “You are amazing,” how does that make you feel in your body? I will say that especially when this started, I was like, “Ugh,” a grumbly mess.
Like, “What? No.” You’ve all these objections. Yet what it’s become with the two of us is us gassing each other up constantly. Like, “You’re amazing.” “You’re amazing. You are so smart. You are a genius. Oh my God. We are the best team.” To the point where people heard us very quickly, culturally, what happens is, what do we do? We judge each other and we say, “Who do they think they are? What are they saying? Oh, they’re so this, they’re so vain. They’re so cocky.” Like, “Look at you. You’re hot.” “Yes. I’m hot. Look at this ass. You see This?” “Yes. Look at my outfit.” It’s like, we have full permission to just love ourselves and say it out loud.
I know that in front of her, I wouldn’t do this in front of anybody else, hardly, because I am worried about being judged. Instead with her, I’m like, “Look at this. Don’t I look hot?” She’s like, “Oh my God, you look so hot. Yes, girl work.” To be in that kind of energy is incredible. I went shopping on Sunday and I have some money stuff that I still need to work through clearly, and especially around spending money on “frivolous” things. I got this sweater. It was very on sale, but it was over a hundred dollars. I was like, “I’m probably going to take it back. I’m like going to show her this sweater.”
I’m like, “Yes, it was like really expensive and I’m probably going to take it back but it’s so cute. I want you to see it.” Blah, blah. She was like, “Hold on. Are you saying this for you or are you saying this for me?” I was like, “Well, I probably–” and I was so uncomfortable, but she’s right and called me out. I was like, “It’s probably for me. I don’t know.” She’s like, “Do you think I’m judging you for spending a hundred dollars on a sweater?” I was like, “I don’t know. Maybe,” and whatever. She’s like, “I am not judging you for spending a hundred dollars on a sweater.
If you want to spend a hundred dollars on a sweater, spend a hundred dollars on a sweater. I don’t freaking care. It’s your money. You do your thing. If it makes you feel good, yes, girl, get that sweater.” I was like, “Okay.” We’re just not around that energy.
Justine: Nothing in return.
Sarah: I didn’t, I took the tag off and I wore it yesterday and I loved it. You said it looked cute.
Justine: Oh, that was the one. You look so cute.
Sarah: I know. It’s so cozy. I love the sweater, the neckline, everything about it. I’m obsessed. It’s so cute. It’s like a staple piece I’ll have the rest of my life. If it’s just me, do I have guilt about spending a hundred dollars? Do I have a hundred dollars? Should I be spending a hundred dollars? Who decides that? It’s all fake.
Justine: It is.
Sarah: It’s numbers in a computer somewhere. You’re never going to wipe away all your [crosstalk] for me as well, by the way. [laughter] You’re like, “Spend the money, do the thing.” I’m like, “I know you’re the best friend for shopping. That’s for sure.” Like, “Buy it.”
Justine: I won’t, but I want you to. [laughter]
Sarah: Either way, it’s like, it’s sort of that recognizing how mean we are and how judgy everywhere we go. Myself included. I’m sure you included. We’re right there, but what would it look like to make the conscious effort to just be someone who celebrates others unconditionally? What harm does that ever do? How does that make you look any worse or any better by putting them down? Other than for your own insecurities.
Justine: It is our own insecurities.
Sarah: It is, but like, doesn’t it actually feel better to celebrate them and make them feel great? Then they feel more bonded to you. Then in the grand scheme of things, it’s better all around.
Justine: Right. It goes back to like, if you’re celebrating them, they’re getting dopamine, they want to be around you because you give them more dopamine and then you’re being like, it’s all transactional.
Sarah: Yes. It’s a value proposition, that like we exchange value in the world, right? That value can come in the form of money and time and compliments in feedback, in sharing your wisdom, your giftings, art form. All of that, it’s all just value proposition. The more you hoard, the more stale you get inside versus you give. It’s just like this idea of generosity. It really comes down to a scarcity mindset in my mind that like, the more scarce you are– why would I hold back a compliment? Because there’s not enough compliments to go around?
Justine: Right.
Sarah: No, it’s only because I think that there is a limit. That’s a scarcity mindset. I want to be an abundant person that is just so generous with what I offer the world and really just trusting and letting go of and believing that the value will come back. It’s the same with Bundle Birth, right? Why do we do so much free education? Why do I pay people to be on Instagram? Because it’s value to you that I believe will come back value to me in some way. I’m not sitting around being like- at some points I’m like, “Where is the money for all I do?
[laughter] In general, if I’m choosing to be an abundant mindset person, there is always more, even in business. There’s always more. There’s another client. Can you have clients and you sell a childbirth class and I sell a childbirth class? Yes. I don’t need all 150 million people. I’ll take five. Thanks.
Justine: Yes, for sure.
Sarah: Five million. I’m talking about not five.
Justine: [laughter] I thought you meant five actually.
Sarah: Oh, no. I’m glad I clarified it. Because 150 million, I want five million of those things. Abundance.
Justine: I think, yes. Working on some self-love, working on–
Sarah: How have you found self-love? I’ve shared a lot about me, but tell me about your self-love journey.
Justine: It has been the reframing my thoughts in my head for sure. That’s me. Surrounding myself with people also, like you said, like when I’m trying to level up, I’m surrounding myself with people that are celebratory. I’m thinking about my friends and I’m like, “Yes, I have so many,” and I’m actually a little bit scared of how many silent jobs have I sent in my life? When you said that in the beginning of the episode, I took a note like I don’t want to be a silent jabber. We probably don’t even realize we’re doing it..
Sarah: No, it is about you. It’s not about the other person, but the other person carries it.
Justine: Right. That’s such a good– yes.
Sarah: I know. Same. I’m having a moment as well.
Justine: It’s okay to have the moment and like reflect on it and think about your responses to people and text messages. It is all about you and reflecting on why do I want to send that? Then it’s hard– whatever. That’s a whole nother deep dive. For me, I think it is been the conversations in my head. I also am surrounded by– you have Hannah. I have a Geordie who’s my best friend and sister who lives with me. I do have that. I get to celebrate myself and her all the time. There is a special part of like just sisterhood for sure.
You can build that with people that aren’t directly related to you by blood. You can. Living with them is great. It makes it so much easier.
Sarah: I will say, Justine, I think that you are somebody that I– I’ve told you this before. Now this sounds like it was staged for the sake of the conversation, but I genuinely was just going to say this regardless, but now I feel like I [crosstalk]
Justine: I had no idea [crosstalk]
Sarah: I think that something that I have observed about you in social circumstances is that you are extremely loving and curious to others. When you said that you have so many friends, I’ve was in my mind going like, “Huh, I wonder what that’s about,” but I’m like, “I don’t have to wonder that long because I’ve seen you over the years and in so many different circumstances that you are genuinely curious about other people.” I think that is something that is so beautiful. You talk about being a TCK. You’re a TCK in that way. It’s better than–
Justine: I think I’m a TCK without being out of the United States, but you know what my biggest issue is? I could agree with you. I am.
Sarah: You, but you carry conversation. “Hold on. Don’t cut me off. I’m trying to try to go. She’s so uncomfortable. I love it.” What I’m saying is that curiosity and your genuine care for other people is so incredibly evident because it’s genuine. I think that, people that are listening, like, “I want to be more curious, but be like genuinely curious.” I think about myself and I’m like, I suck at opening my eyes. I get so blinders on and just task-oriented and mind you that’s survival in many ways. Outside of work, I can be a little more like normal person.
When I think about going somewhere with you professionally, you are so comfortable. Even if you’re not internally, that’s fine, but like you come across extremely comfortable in who you are and genuinely just willing to give of your uplistening ear of hearing people’s stories of wondering about where they’ve been. It makes people feel so seen, safe, and soothed to the point where like, no wonder you have so many friends. Whereas I am like very transactional and can be very fun and curious when I’m in a mood, but otherwise I’m closed off.
Mind you, I think right now in this season of my life, it works for me to be more closed off. I don’t know that I want to be best friends with everyone. I’m going to need to find a balance in that, but I really admire that about you. I have been in social circumstances and channeled Justine and been like, “Okay, I can see Justine in this room. [crosstalk Let me try that.”
Justine: It’s really nice of you. I will say, I think I agree with you. My biggest issue is, and I want to be more like Lizzie because of what you’re saying is I am lazy when it comes to like follow through with friends.
Sarah: Oh same.
Justine: If I don’t talk to you for three months, one, it gets a little more like, “How do I bring up a conversation?”
Sarah: That’s very TCK, by the way, because whoever’s in front of you.
Justine: Yes. If they talk to me though, I’m like, “Great. Nothing’s changed. Let’s jump right into the deep end together.” I’ve had a hard time with friends that want the conversation.
Sarah: My theory on that for me is that’s just the type of friend I’m looking for. If somebody has an issue with that, they need to understand I am who I am and I’m going to let myself. I cannot be the one that has friends that need that kind of reassurance all the time. When it works, it works. I will be there. I will be present with you. I will care for you. If you need me, reach out and let me know. I will drop of a hat, but like, I don’t know. I want to be more like Lizzie for like my core, but I don’t have the capacity to be like that in life
Justine: It’s true. She can give us her tips.
Sarah: Definitely. No, for sure. Any other tips for making adult friends? How do we make adult friends?
Justine: This was on my list and this isn’t applied to everybody, but it says pass it down. I was like, “Pass it down?” Pass it down to your children on how to be a good friend and how to be intentional, especially when it comes to even self-love and giving praise and those things. I think as a generation, I feel like what I see on social media and it might just be my algorithm is that there is a push to do that. There is a push to speak nicer to yourself out loud, give yourself more grace out loud, right? Talk about like you spill something like, “Oh, I could just clean it up,” and trying to monologue that for people, but, passing it down.
Then, oh, I put on my notes that I wrote when you were talking in the beginning about when you level up, you level out. I thought about the– I’ve seen this somewhere, like try to be the dumbest person in the room. You want to be like the dumbest person in the room in the sense of like being in the rooms where you’re going to grow, be in social groups, you’re going to grow. [crosstalk] That’s like a whole different thing. Even just with friendships. I think I’m thinking personally, I see all these mom hiking groups that I really want to go to.
I’m like, “I’m going to sign up and go,” but I had this fear like, “I’m not going to do that. I don’t want to have to talk to new people,” which I do fine in, but it is uncomfortable. I don’t want superficial conversation. I want to know all about how much your four-year-old irritating you and how you want to punch your husband in the face. Tell me that right now, but I can’t just day one talk to them about that unless they want to. I will. I battle all those things. I’m challenged and I hope that people listening are challenged to step outside of their comfort zone.
This is a little morbid, but I think about our funerals, like who’s going to be there and who you want to be there. I don’t know. I think about LNG nurses too. We are notoriously known as the mean girls on a lot of units, the hospital sees us as the mean girls and how can we challenge that culture?
Sarah: Yes. Just imagine a world in which you come to work and you are on a team that like, there is no judgment. There is only celebration. When someone makes a mistake, they come and they feel horrible. They have a team that gases them up. It’s like, “You got this, you are so smart and we’re going to help you fix it. We’re all going to learn together from this mistake.” Versus what it is. Like Oh, you talk about casting vision. That’s better than patient safety. I’m just kidding. It’s not. [laughs] For us, selfishly, I’m like, I would rather work in a unit like that is a hot mess that it is like–
Justine: Their C-section rate is 60%, but they all love each other. [laughter]
Sarah: I actually think that when you have team dynamics like that, patient outcomes are going to be better because you have people showing up to the bedside like, “I love my life. I love my job. Here’s my best friend. We’re going to like whip this into shape and like, let’s get you that vaginal birth. Girl, we’re your best friends and cheerleaders.” That’s what we all want. We can be so much better, myself included. You think about the impact on a unit for this, but also knowing that like, my last thought, because again, I have a lot of thoughts on this.
This is a long episode, but that I think that we also have to acknowledge that there are people that come into in and out of our lives for a moment, a season, and then that are lifers. I think the disappointment happens when we have friends that we think are lifers that then come to find out they’re actually seasonable friends. It’s easy to get jaded by hard relationships or by riffs and relationships. I have two that I can think of right now that I thought were lifelong friends and came to find out that they were seasonal friends and they’re no longer in my life.
That is the best thing for me. It’s probably the best thing for them. There’s grief in that. I think holding loosely to our relationships and believing, if you think they’re a lifer, then they’re a lifer until they’re not. When they’re not holding on to those relationships that really are seasonal friends, whether it be for a level up and out, for whether it be for a disagreement or a conflict or a rupture in trust that you don’t feel like is repairable. That takes both parties that like, that gap of understanding that like, okay, they’re seasonal. One, for me has been helpful.
There is some grief there and that’s really hard to lose an adult friendship, but then also to be able to reorient and go, “Okay, who do I have that are my lifers?” For me, my lifers, I thought we’re going to be 25 people. Now I’m looking at my lifers and I’m like, “I have like a handful of people and they’re my ride or dies and you best believe, I will bury that body, but I’m not going to do that for somebody who I just met yesterday. It’s sort of like–
Justine: 25 people is too much. You’re not in a game.
Sarah: Way too much.
Justine: Yes. You’re a football team. No.
Sarah: You can’t keep up. It’s like quality over quantity. If you’re feeling lonely or you’re feeling like you don’t have any friends or you’re feeling like maybe your circle doesn’t fit you anymore, that that’s okay. That to me is just an indication of a season of life. I have been there where I have never felt more alone. I’ve been there where I felt like I’m a social butterfly, but I feel alone. I think all of us, for me, I would love for people to just consider your friendships. If you want a part two on this one, I actually have like an evaluate your relationships exercise that we could talk through and then offer as a free PDF for a future episode.
Let us know if you want that. You can send us a DM, send us an e-mail, comment somewhere, maybe we’ll post something on friendships. It’s so hard to comment on podcasts, but let us know somehow and we can come back and talk about that. When you evaluate your relationships, use this as a little check-in and then say, “Where am I at? Am I okay with my relationships?” If you are, then great. You don’t need to go find more friendships. Maybe you need to cultivate more depth or be more open or ask better questions or create more quality time with those that you do have and prioritize the relationships that you do.
I feel disconnected with my best friend. I haven’t talked to her in so long. I’m going to make the effort to like, “Let’s go to lunch,” or maybe you feel totally alone. That’s where it’s like looking into getting yourself into uncomfortable spaces, thinking about the hobbies that you love, joining a gym, finding a social event in your city, finding like an art show or go to a dinner by yourself or go sit at the bar and be open to talking to the bartender. Just like carry yourself in a way where you put your phone away and see what happens.
Explore your neighborhood, go on a trip. Ask somebody on your unit to breakfast after work that you think might be interesting and then be discerning along the way to like, don’t hold on to people just to hold on to people. That to me has more damage than not, but let them go if it’s not right. If it’s not a good fit. It doesn’t mean it’s bad for you. It doesn’t have anything bad for them, but we are meant for relationship and unless we put some intention towards that, I think it’s easy, especially right this day and age, we are all way too lonely.
Justine: Thanks for spending your time with us during this episode of Happy Hour with Bundle Birth Nurses. If you like what you heard, it helps us both if you subscribe, rate, leave a raving review and share this episode with a friend, If you want more from us, head to bundlebirthnurses.com or follow us on Instagram.
Sarah: Now it’s your turn to go and think about where you’re at with your friendships and those around you. Maybe it’s time to make a new friend. Maybe it’s time to reach out to someone that you’ve lost contact with, or maybe it’s time to set aside some time with those that you do have and share with them what you appreciate about them. We’ll see you next time.